There are several levels to practical software freedom. Even though a strict definition would only require an appropriate license be used, there are many more aspects we should care about. The most obvious one is root access for the end user. This comparison covers the four points I feel are most important:
- User Access Rights
- Cooperation and Interoperability
- Presence of Closed Source Software
- Freedom in Practice
User Access Rights
With mobile phones, control over your own device has never been something to take for granted. Many existing platforms do allow users to run their own software, but even then often at the mercy of security policies targeting malware. Further muddling things, the limited nature of traditional mobile operating systems made the usefulness of such access questionable. More powerful hardware has now made it possible to run Linux on mobile phones without sacrificing power consumption, and users should expect more.Both Android and Maemo can claim that the core software is Free, but we are so far only discussing access rights. Unfortunately for Android, none of the vendors actually making devices seem to be concerned about granting any. While not as hard as jailbreaking an iPhone, users still have to go out of their way to get full access to the system.
Maemo, on the other hand, is developed directly by Nokia, which is going to ship its hardware with root access available out of the box. The only step users need to take is to install one package from the official repository to confirm they've read about the risks.
So if Android devices are easy to root, what's the problem here? There are several:
- Beginners aren't even going to consider doing it. Freedom shouldn't require expertise, and who are we to say that no novice has a legitimate need for root access, ever?
- Advanced users should not put up with having to hack their own device. Some may feel leet after doing so, but in reality they've accomplished nothing except paying for a crippled product. Users shouldn't have to fight the operating system, and lose vendor security updates in the process. An operating system that needs to be hacked is inferior in use even if users can regain their freedom.
- The market will be fragmented between hacked and unhacked devices. Users running hacked platforms can never be sure they'll be taken into account in future products and services.
Winner: Maemo on Nokia hardware.
Cooperation and Interoperability
We could write the most amazing text editor, but if it only ran under a Nintendo emulator, it would be virtually useless to anyone else. There is nothing inherently wrong with such an editor, but we're probably not going to get much cooperation going, and you might even question the motives of a developer advertising such a program. This is why simply licensing something under the GPL isn't always enough.
What cooperation means to each individual is best discussed elsewhere, but we can clearly see which platform is ahead of the other.
Maemo is a stripped down Debian GNU/Linux that runs a mobile-optimized window manager on a standard X11 window server. What this means is that code can easily be shared with virtually any existing Unix-like Free operating system. As a concrete example, the Hildon toolkit Nokia developed for creating mobile-friendly applications has been adopted by Gnome and is used on Ubuntu Mobile Internet Device Edition.Android runs on the Linux kernel, but applications are developed for a non-standard virtual machine. A native SDK has been released, but it's only designed to allow performance critical parts of VM apps to run native. In short, Android is nothing like what one would expect from a system using Linux as its kernel, and developers are in practice forced to use Java with non-standard bytecode. One might even suggest that Google has done this on purpose, in order to limit interoperability and push users towards its proprietary web services.
This is of great consequence even to users who understand none of it. Maemo can theoretically run any desktop Debian application. In practice, the UI must be adapted for mobile use, and packages must be modified to avoid the minimal N900 system partition, which exists on faster hardware than a larger partition. For developers, this is still a piece of cake compared to porting to Android, and users are free to install a chrooted full Debian subsystem to run desktop apps without modification (link goes to package description in previous Maemo version).
Going even further, Qt-based apps will also run on Symbian and Windows in addition to Unix-like operating systems.
Winner: Maemo
Presence of Closed Source Software
While it would be nice if everything were Free, users must often compromise to have a fully usable system. Video card drivers have been a historical sore spot. Intel was for a long time the only vendor that took Free drivers seriously, but its hardware was never targeted towards heavyweight gaming. As a result, many users chose to use proprietary drivers. This is unfortunately the case even with phones.
Both Android and Maemo include other closed components as well. This was recently highlighted when Google prevented CyanogenMod from distributing many apps for hacked devices. While reactions to the ban were overblown, this does reveal the problem of having closed components on otherwise Free systems.On Android, the closed apps include GMail, maps, talk, etc. On Maemo, they include similar features. Neither is a large problem. In Nokia's case, the company has to do something to differentiate itself from competitors that might otherwise ship the OS without contributing any R&D money. Google is probably having trouble profiting at all, since it doesn't even make devices. Under such circumstances, closed source software can become attractive.
Winner: None, but neither is catastrophic. Much work is left lobbying for better graphics drivers, but there are plenty of Free email clients.
Freedom in Practice
The mobile phone market is further complicated by the fact that many users choose to buy their devices from network operators rather than device manufacturers. This is true especially in the US, where operators do their best to ensure that users have the least possible access rights. What will happen to Maemo and Android remains to be seen if this continues, but historically Nokia is the only major manufacturer to seriously try to push unlocked devices in the US (with little success).
As a glimmer of hope, T-Mobile has introduced its new "Even more" and "Even more plus" plans, one of which is $20/month cheaper than the other and doesn't come with a phone. Over 2 years time, the difference adds up to $480. Previously it has often been the case that US users have been forced to pay the same price whether they bought their phone separately or not. But will this be enough to entice the average user away from deals that claim the phone only costs $99?
Winner: Uncertain, but Nokia has demonstrated more willingness to side with the user.
Conclusion
Maemo isn't perfect, but still much ahead of Android. Development for Maemo has the potential to benefit existing Linux distributions, and many desktop apps will surely be interested in adding a mobile-optimized GUI as a compile time option. CLI applications will work without trouble, and experienced Linux users can easily connect to their desktop computers using SSH and X11. The Nokia N900 officially supports root access.Android is an island of its own, and useful code sharing is largely limited to the kernel. Developers can't even always use the language of their choice. Android hardware manufacturers can't be trusted to allow users the freedoms the software would grant, let alone fight network operators.
Posts
The only major disadvantage to Maemo is that the best apps are going to be built for Android and iPhone because those will have the most users. If you want standard things like maps and a web browser, Maemo is going to be fine. But if you want the latest innovations like Layar or barcode scanning and such, you are likely going to have to wait or even do without if you are a Maemo user.
ReplyDeleteJudging from what you've said it looks like Maemo is more open and easier to develop for. However I question the actual "openness" of Maemo and Android. For example can I take the source, modify it and compile my own version and install it on the phone like desktop Linux distros ?
ReplyDeleteThis is the second Anonymous posting again:
ReplyDeleteTo the first anonymous:
From what I've heard you can run Debian ARM programs on the phone and easily port existing programs to Maemo. For example they've already ported Pidgin,Mplayer and battle for wesnoth for Maemo. That would make the N900 the first cell phone ever that would be able to play literally any and every audio or video format - something which no other phone or OS even comes close to achieveing - including WinMobile with VLC.
This is the real second Anonymous posting to the fake second Anonymous (actually the third Anonymous):
ReplyDeleteHow did you get my password?
@14:16
ReplyDeleteYes, exactly the same as with desktop installs that have some binary components. You would probably have to ensure you keep the same kernel version and don't remove certain features if you want the proprietary drivers (at a guess - phone control and 3D acceleration) to still work.
There are no arbitrary restrictions, if you break it you get to keep both halves. So as long as you don't break the boot-loader/flasher (which may be protected and hard to access) you can do what you want with it.
This post is really funny. Keep the spirit up!
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree that the Maemo platform is better as far as a developer running their own apps, I believe it will end up being the "island" of which you speak. Only one manufacturer makes devices for Maemo and it seems that the only way to get new versions of the OS is to buy new devices. This severely limits the market for this device.
ReplyDeleteI am not quite old enough to have been caught by the Beta/VHS trap but I did invest heavily in my Amiga computers back in the day. I got stuck with the Palm OS platform and have been hanging in there for years because no other platform had some of the apps I got used to. Well, I am not going down that road again. I was seriously considering the N900 even though that would have forced me to switch to T-Mobile. But now that I see how Android is taking off, I don't rightly care if Maemo is "technically better." I want a platform that is "open enough" and will enable me to develop for the widest audience possible.
Similar to how the Maemo platform is constrained to being supported directly by Nokia, same goes with development. The development tools, at least for Maemo 4 and I haven't seen much of a difference with Maemo 5, are still very young and can take a lot of work to get things going right before development begins. Android is better documented and better supported for development since it's fairly easy to develop across any platform.
ReplyDeleteTry getting a development environment setup on Windows for Maemo. It's a lot of fun...
- Nokia is not the only manufacturer using Maemo.
ReplyDelete- Maemo 6 might be ported for N900 by Nokia.
- Maemo 6 will probably be ported for N900 by community driven project supported by Nokia.
- Nokia is the worlds largest manufacturer of mobile phones -> Nokia has the widest audience -> In 2010 Qt on Symbian and Maemo will get biggest audience by far.
From a security perspective, isnt it better that android doesnt "easily" let you run as root?
ReplyDeletewill the real anonymous please stand up...
ReplyDeleteI feel like the article should point out that, although the android Java VM is non-standard, it is also free software licensed under Apache 2.0
ReplyDeleteThe non-standard bytecode is meant to optimize performance.
Source Code
http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/dalvik.git;a=tree
License
http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/dalvik.git;a=blob;f=README.txt;h=2dccb1347461af8106ad46ffa5c0fd7065b7d59b;hb=HEAD
Seeing as you can run Android apps on desktop Linux systems, wouldn't this also mean you could run them under Maemo?
ReplyDeleteHaving had both a maemo device (n800) and a Android device (htc hero) - I can say that developing for an android device is hands down easier. The documentation is better and the tools are integrated better.
ReplyDeleteGoogles involvement gives you an out of the box experience that is far far better than the maemo experience for the Joe Bloggs on the street. The app market lets android down a bit because finding anything is not easy (theres too much dross on the market, it needs a higher level of entry or at least some way of filtering without needing to know where an application is). Mind you its still better than finding anything for Maemo as unless you know where the "extra" repos are you're very limited.
Both platforms could take a leaf out of Palms development guides. They give you good guidelines of what you should be doing in your UI to make it usable/consistent with other apps on their platforms.
You forgot to mention that there's an undergoing effort to make android apps usable on linux, so the software ecosystem for maemo will in fact include the Android software ecosystem.
ReplyDeleteNothing can be considered "free" or "open" when the underlying low-level stuff remains "closed", which I understand is the case in both systems.
ReplyDelete@COOLN900
ReplyDeletere "Presence of Closed Source Software"
Nokia allow the redistribution (to Nokia devices) of their closed blobs with the distro. They have made specific efforts to permit this in the licensing.
The Maemo Devices people in Nokia seem to guide the legal team; not vice-versa!
To the second anonymous "For example can I take the source, modify it and compile my own version and install it on the phone like desktop Linux distros ?"
An emphatic "Yes"!
http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer
Nokia are encouraging (and to some degree sponsoring) Mer, a free distro based on blending Ubuntu and Maemo.
Nokia are also revealing some future plans and strategies that show that if/when they provide DRM-capable devices then you *will* *still* be able to install your own kernel. (Amateur crackers - don't get too excited - if you install an 'unsigned' kernel, the bootloader will disable the DRM hardware keys but it will still run your kernel).
Thanks for the great post. Ive been lucky enough to recieve a maemo 5 prerelease n900 device already. You can easily chroot into debian or ubuntu (arm) and run absolutely anything. Porting geany, screen, joe, nano and others to run outside a chroot was a simple as an apt-get source package (from debian or ubuntu source) and dpkg-buildpkg -rfakeroot. sudo gainroot gives you root on the device straight out of the (prerelease) box.
ReplyDeleteMaemo 5 UI and user experience are miles ahead of the n8x0. Also SIP/Skype calls are indistinguishable from cell calls and nothing beats a full text dump of wikipedia in your pocket :)
Personally I think this device currently blows away anything else ive seen and the UI can compete in the mainstream consumer marketplace. Plus the openness means you can hack it to pieces as it supports just about anything you can do with debian...
The future of smart phones should be very interesting. Its important to note that although Apple puts a ton of hype and marketing behind the iPhone it is far behind Nokia's current offerings in market share and in the realm of all cell phones the iPhone barely even registers.
ReplyDeleteForget about the buzz, Nokia has the bulk of the smart phone market share and with this existing customer base has a good shot at making Maemo the smart phone OS of the future.
I do however see the possibility of a massive up take in Android phone market share based on cheap smart phones. The current smart phones, iPhone, Blackberry, and even Nokia's smart phones are priced to where only die hard cell phone fans are going to pay the stupid price for a cell phone. There will soon be Android cell phones in the market for under $100 and this could start to push smart phones into the hands of more cell phone users with a more reasonable handset price.
I'd prefer an open cell phone but I suspect Nokia's market share or cheap Android phones will have more impact on future market dominance more than openness for the end user. The iPhone, due to Apple's targeting of only those who will pay a premium for products and their continual adversarial battle with users and developers they will continue to be only a me too player in the smart phone market.
@Anonymous 15:30
ReplyDeleteDoesn't that to some extent address the author's concern that Android development does not contribute to the main Linux software/development ecosystem?
I mean, they're not contributed directly via traditional means, but if the apps can still be run in a regular Linux environment (though by means of an implementation of the JVM), does that count as contributing? How would it be different to, for instance, developing apps that require a certain interpreter language or libraries to be installed to run?
What about freedom of choice?
ReplyDeleteAs long as Nokia refuses to license Maemo you are stuck with only the N900 (or the N770/800/810 that are not even phones).
If this is going to work they need to attract a lot of people to use it, make it as pervasive as Symbian. Users wont care about the freedom if there are no apps, developers need to get interested and excited about the platform too!
Otherwise being as free as it is, I don't see it going any farther than OpenMoko or Familiar
Google is watching you...
ReplyDeleteThe key here is convergence, we can't have a proliferance of operating systems from multiple vendors. Maintaining an OS is too expensive in the long run, it is cheaper to share the burden and focus on developing things that truly provide a competitive advantage. This is why Android will "win" no matter how good Maemo is.
ReplyDeleteSo, 550 desktop Linux distributions is good, but three smartphone Linux distributions (Android, Maemo, WebOS) is bad?
ReplyDeleteIt's Linux. It's all good.
a. You can run Android on a PC and have root access. And you can buy the unlocked google G1 developer phone and have a phone with root access. Don't blame the OS. Locks are imposed by carriers on subsidized phones.
ReplyDeleteb. There are Java interop issues, but they aren't the ones you are discussing. Dalvik was used largely to avoid Java licensing issues. But you can throw any old Java at it, including packaging .jar files with your app, and it all gets converted into Dalvik vm. The real interop issue is that it only supports a subset of J2SE, and is not compatible with J2ME. But this hasn't proven to be a huge impediment to developers.
c. You can use the JNI layer on Android to wrap a C app and then write the UI around it. This is how the various emulators that are available to non-rooted phones were done. It's maybe slightly more effort than reworking the UI for a typical XWindows app, but not much.
Being a Maemo developer for ~4 years, the supposed "easiness" of developing for Android doesnt make me move a inch on supporting it. Why the fuck would I want to learn a new API for a new Java-Like virtual machine when I can do everything I want with the same damn language I've been using for the last 10 years?
ReplyDeleteAbout running Android on Maemo, I've seen it before. There is even a full blown Android distro for N770 , called Nitdroid.
Grant S. Robertson said...
ReplyDelete"While I agree that the Maemo platform is better as far as a developer running their own apps, I believe it will end up being the "island" of which you speak."
The Beta/VHS thing could happen wrt. market share, but imho it'll never end up as an island, due to Debian compatibility.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"Try getting a development environment setup on Windows for Maemo. It's a lot of fun..."
I've never tried on Windows, but it's so easy on Linux you should try running Debian or Ubuntu in a virtual machine.
lbt said...
ReplyDelete"Nokia allow the redistribution (to Nokia devices) of their closed blobs with the distro. They have made specific efforts to permit this in the licensing.
The Maemo Devices people in Nokia seem to guide the legal team; not vice-versa!"
This is nice to hear! But I think the goal should still be to have proper drivers.
Verizon works where I need it to. TMobile does not. I wish I could go with the n900 but all the openeness in the world won't help if you can't get a signal so moto shole 4 me. Shame though, I'd love to support maemo if it had phones on the carrier I have to use!
ReplyDeleteMike said...
ReplyDelete"a. You can run Android on a PC and have root access. And you can buy the unlocked google G1 developer phone and have a phone with root access. Don't blame the OS. Locks are imposed by carriers on subsidized phones."
Running Android on a PC doesn't help me much when its purpose is to run on a phone, and I don't want to buy a developer phone for features that should be present on regular ones.
You're correct in that there's no need to blame the OS itself, but that's irrelevant as long as it's shipped the way it is. If you buy one of the phones, you're not getting the ideal Android.
"There are Java interop issues, but they aren't the ones you are discussing. Dalvik was used largely to avoid Java licensing issues. But you can throw any old Java at it, including packaging .jar files with your app, and it all gets converted into Dalvik vm. The real interop issue is that it only supports a subset of J2SE, and is not compatible with J2ME. But this hasn't proven to be a huge impediment to developers."
Thanks for the info! I should have been more precise, perhaps.
"c. You can use the JNI layer on Android to wrap a C app and then write the UI around it. This is how the various emulators that are available to non-rooted phones were done. It's maybe slightly more effort than reworking the UI for a typical XWindows app, but not much."
Sorry, but I don't think this is good enough compared to what a complete Linux distro offers.
For Grant, there's an app for Maemo that will let you run all of your old Palm apps on your N8x0 (or perhaps the new N900).
ReplyDeleteYou can move forward into the world of Maemo while keeping your familiar Palm apps.
@nickname is required:
ReplyDeleteI wholeheartedly agree. I have a winmo 5 phone that I'd love to replace with an N900 or similar device, but I have to stick with Verizon, both for coverage and because of the consolidated family billing that I have.
I bought my wife a refurbished N770 that she used around the house, and she loved it for the two years that it survived. I can't justify the 600 bucks for another tablet that isn't also the replacement for my phone, though.
There just isn't a satisfactory combination of device and carrier for me right now, so I'm going to keep the old slug for a while longer in the hopes that there will be a maemo device for US Verizon customers.
@Grant S. Robertson: you realize that Symbian is still the largest smart phone platform by a lot? And Nokia is positioning Qt as an API to be used on both Symbian and Maemo.
ReplyDeleteYou say you used an Amiga and felt burned by it (not sure why though, they were still the best computers at the time :P). However saying that Nokia is the "Amiga" of the situation just doesn't make sense! Here in the US we see Nokia as the music phone company, but for much of the planet Nokia defines what a phone is.
"The iPhone, due to Apple's targeting of only those who will pay a premium for products and their continual adversarial battle with users and developers they will continue to be only a me too player in the smart phone market."
ReplyDelete*chuckles*
Yes, that's exactly what we see happening. Let's check the news:
* Apple doubles its iPhone market share
* iPhone market share grew 375% in Q2
* Survey shows iPhone threatens BlackBerry; Palm holds steady
Try it yourself: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=iphone+market+share&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
You, my friend, have crossed the line from advocacy to lunacy and zealotry.
Maemo has the problem of running on hardware that is not universally available for purchase - eg in australia.
ReplyDeleteAs of Q2 2009, Symbian's smartphone market share is 50.3%, iPhone's is 13.7%. Overall cell phone market share of Apple (not just smartphones) is about 1%, while Nokia is 36.2%.
ReplyDeleteSo, my iAnonymous friend, dream on :-)
cloudraven said...
ReplyDelete"What about freedom of choice?
As long as Nokia refuses to license Maemo you are stuck with only the N900"
Where did you get the idea Maemo will never be licensed?
Me would buy N900. So I can have a real computer ringing in my pocket. With a real Debian and without crippled JVMs and moron restrictions. Finally! Nokia rocks! And Google can learn several lessons.
ReplyDeleteP.S. and as for applications, there is OpenTTD port for N8x0. Or what about Pidgin IM? I doubt anyone would be able to port it to Android in a reasonable time. Should I enjoy by rapidly-written and half-baked notepad-like java crap instead of mature apps which took years to develop, test and improve? Android is a TOY for script-kiddies. But useless for serious tasks due to Java nature of platform and damn uncomfortable for geeks as well. So Android ... who would BUY it? And why? On other hand Nokia would create full-featured devices which are worth of purchase on it's own and running Debian makes them worth of their price two extra times.
Wait a second...
ReplyDeleteMaemo seems much more closed to me.
The browser, MicroB, is PROPRIETARY and has a EULA.
Really, why would they need to close the browser?
Anyway, much more of Maemo is closed than Android.
The biggest drawback of Maemo is that it's run by a hardware company.
ReplyDeleteYou're an idiot troll.
ReplyDeleteYour google ads on your 2 post blog just further confirm it.
Android is open source, runs on more platforms (at no cost) than Qt. Runs on netbooks and cell phones.
You probably think Python is the greatest language ever designed, too.
Well the essential point is that Android is an island. It's not compatible with anything. While Maemo is just a stripped down Debian. I can get most Debian packages for it and since I can easily get a (root) shell and SSH, I can use every program installed on my home computer.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDelete"Wait a second...
Maemo seems much more closed to me.
The browser, MicroB, is PROPRIETARY and has a EULA.
Really, why would they need to close the browser?"
Previous versions of Maemo had a closed browser. The current one is open, as far as I know. At least they said they were planning to do so when development started.
If you're reading that one wiki page on maemo.org, it seems really outdated.
"Anonymous said...
Android is open source, runs on more platforms (at no cost) than Qt. Runs on netbooks and cell phones."
Android runs on more platforms than Qt? Yeah, right. Technically you could port the VM to just about anything, but in practice Qt is way ahead and uses native executables.
Texrat said...
"Where did you get the idea Maemo will never be licensed?"
And additionally it doesn't need to be licensed, unless another company wants to use the trademark. Everything that matters is open source or will be open source (oFono isn't ready yet, so Maemo 5 uses the old, closed source telephony stack)
Wrt. the browser: see this page
ReplyDeletehttp://www.mozilla.org/projects/fennec/1.0b3/releasenotes
N900 and its debian-based meamo5 is anything else but an island solution, it will totally rock!
I have Debian running on my HTC Hero in parallel with Android. I can even VNC from Android to IceWM running locally on Debian (no video drivers etc. to run X natively).
ReplyDeleteYes so it's a bit of a hack (as opposed to arriving in this form) but if you're knowledgeable to know what you're doing in Linux, you're knowledgeable to get this up and running.
And for the record, rooting on Android is e-a-s-y on 1.5/1.6 (can't say for new devices on 2.0) as described here:
http://lifehacker.com/5339901/get-root-access-in-android-with-one-click
> The browser, MicroB, is PROPRIETARY
ReplyDeleteIt runs Gecko engine, only launcher is "proprietary" but it contains nothing interesting. All hard work done by open source. And there is at least some 4 (or more?) extra broswers in repositories: Fennec, Midori, some proprietary Qt-based one, webkit engine, etc.
On "more open" Android ... you CAN NOT have such alternate browser at all. Because you limited to java crap ONLY! So you're out of luck and there is no alternate browsers and browser engines at all. And you can't easily have something like Fennec or Midori running on Android. Because google's platform not compatible with anything else at all.
> easily port existing programs to Maemo.
ReplyDeleteSure! There are Pidgin, Mplayer, Psi, OpenTTD, KeePass, ... we all know and love :). Now you can run them on your PHONE! Only Nokia makes it possible :D
Nice. Now, if somebody on the maemo team could develop an android and an iphone virtual machine, then it'd be a game changer.
ReplyDelete> Android is open source, runs on more platforms
ReplyDelete> (at no cost) than Qt. Runs on netbooks and
> cell phones.
Android is not compatible with any other platform. So, it's useless toy. And what's the clue to turn fully-featured notebook to java-based toy with capabilities of cell phone? That's an funny idiocy from Google. Hard disk sucks as hammer. So, there are hammers and hard disks. While it's theoretically possible to create universal HDD which can also serve you as hammer, replacing usual hammers.
> You probably think Python is the greatest
> language ever designed, too.
Wait, if we're about openness and freedom, let's programmers to CHOOSE WHAT LANGUAGE THEY LIKE! Otherwise, it's just DICTATORSHIP.
So, on N900 you can use Python. Or Ruby. Or C. Or C++. Or TCL. Or Perl. Or shell scripting. Or whatever else if you can build it for ARM, up to brainf**k interpreters, if someone really prefers to use it.
Freedom is when you can have your way and your choice. That's how FREEDOM looks like. When you're FORCED to use JAVA ONLY, that's not a FREEDOM, that's CRAP! Dictatorship != freedom.
You're a stupid Nokia fanboy and nothing more.
ReplyDeleteWow thats pretty cool dude!
ReplyDeleteRT
www.hide-yer-stuff.se.tc
> You're a stupid Nokia fanboy and nothing more.
ReplyDeleteYes, when you're beaten in discussion and can't counter-argument with a smart phrase, but still wanna tell something bad to opponent, that's have to be insult due to lack of other words, yeah?
Sadly for you such behavior only shows us who is outsmarted in discussion. So yes, people, you can see who would write apps for Android. And users have to use programs written by such people? Whoa, I do not want to be one of these users for sure.
That xeyes screenshot is the image that is worth a 1000 words...
ReplyDeleteOnly Google benefited from the freedom in Android, the final user is not getting much of it.
This blog entry is a little bit trollish. In theory, I agree with freedom rant, but reality is different. Developers want powerful and easy-to-use API, while users simply want usable phone (as Jamie Zawinski puts it: "So why would i get an iPhone ? Because it's an appliance that just fucking works").
ReplyDeleteSo, see you in a year or two, when Android and Maemo and iPhone will battle it out. In the end, users with wallets vote for best option.
Nokia are open not just to code and developers, but even to the *community* asking for a full-time member of staff to create variants of Maemo built entirely around open source.
ReplyDeleteCarsten Munk, the project lead of Mer (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer) is now paid by Nokia to continue the excellent work he's been doing there:
http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-October/021841.html
> Developers want powerful and easy-to-use API,
ReplyDeleteAre you a god so you're telling here from the name of all developers on Earth? I'm do not want to use Java, ESPECIALLY it's weird-designed flavour which is not compatible with anything else.
> while users simply want usable phone
When I'm paying over $500 for a device I do not want to have "just a java phone, easy to use". If I would want to have just Java phone which is easy to use, I can go to nearest store and buy one. For some $100 or so. There are so many of them already. And who cares their OS propryetary, if in Google "open" platform you are only allowed to use same JVM as here anyway, only flavour differs but overall idea is not. So, Android not anyhow better than proprietary J2ME devices. What's the use of Linux in Android if you can't use it's system calls anyway and can't use all powerful libs and tools as well? Is it anyhow better than proprietary RTOS in J2ME phone? You can't use OS in both.
So the result is quite same: locked platform where developers and users are locked out of their devices "for security reasons". And actually, these "security reasons" are: Google and some nasty cell operators want to control device instead of users. Plain and simple. I believe Nokia treats her customers in more clear and fair way and not lies you into your face. They preferred to be fair and honest to their customers. I hope Google would follow this way some day as well. Dual standards and padding of interests of cell op's for user's moneys are not a good practice when things are getting open and clear. Turn on your brains and look on things again. It's time to take back control of YOUR devices. If you OWN device, you should be able to fully control it. Else it's called treachery.
Will the real anonymous please stand up?
ReplyDeletenever really tried maemo, but if this is the case then i think i would go for maemo instead of android,..
ReplyDeleteNokia should ditch Symbian and move to Maemo on all high end phones like N and E series. This way it might become an ecosystem to rival Android and OSX
ReplyDelete>Are you a god so you're telling here from the name of all developers on Earth?
ReplyDeleteI am not saying that Android is the way to heaven. I am simply saying that developers will always choose power over license. Learn to live with it. If it weren't true then Microsoft and Apple would be long dead by now.
>Plain and simple. I believe Nokia treats her customers in more clear and fair way and not lies you into your face.
You really are naive and stupid. Have you ever tried to develop an distribute apps on Nokia in the last 5 years ? Read my lips, oops fingers: Nokia is a corporation, just like Apple, Google, Htc and so on.
Oh, btw, learn to read AND understand what is written.
>When I'm paying over $500 for a device I do not want to have "just a java phone, easy to use"
ReplyDeleteOh, you would rather have a $500 gadget that is unusable and slow ? Cool, you go with unusable and slow Nokia phones, I'll stay with iPhone. It's your money, anyway.
> Nokia should ditch Symbian and move to Maemo
ReplyDeleteI guess they're going exactly this way. When right things happen in right times result is good. And Nokia always told us that question is not "if" but "when". Looks like "when" means "now". So is it a phone? Or a computer? Both! And fits a pocket, unlike laptop.
> I am simply saying that developers will
ReplyDelete> always choose power over license.
Nokia is a power. They even managed to gain some Symbian dev's while it's quite esoteric and strange OS. It would be easier for GTK and Qt frameworks.
> Have you ever tried to develop an distribute
ReplyDelete> apps on Nokia in the last 5 years ?
Yes. I tried Maemo 4. Surely, I do not want to deal with weird symbian OS - learning esoteric OS and it's security stuff is a way too much for me. About maemo? There are no problems to port existing GTK or Qt app (or write application from scratch) and allow others to install it and use it. Maemo 5 is the same in this regard - Nokia clearly defined they have no interest in crippling this platform on their own. Actually, people hacking iphones and anything else anyway, so restrictions pwn only legal users and dev's. That's silly and lame.
Somewhere in the deep in these Nokias it's still Debian. You can even use dpkg and apt-get tools, if you understand what this means. Basically this means that Nokia's software management right now looks just as it looks in any other Debian-based Linx distro. The only major difference ... it is well-polished and user's friendly. Linux is a powerful and flexible system and given a proper attention of competent people, it can kick the asses. Nokia can do it. And at the end of day Nokia sells PHONES. And if $500 phone lacks free software and haves only few programs - that's disadvantage from user's point of view. So, the more free software for their phones, the better user experience on platform. And f...g up dev's is a strange way to attract them :)
> unusable and slow ?
ReplyDeleteAs for usability. I used clipboards since 1995 or so. Yet Apple sells this as "new feature" of 3.0 firmware. Lolz! Bluetooth still can't send files. That would be a killer feature for new firmware just some 3 years later? :D And still no multitasking! I thought MS-DOS times with single task are over, 15 years ago. But Apple recommends to "think different". He-he, do they really think anyone around are, uhm, retards and selling a past year's snow is a such a great deal and willing to work indefinitely?
And I personally compared Maemo on-screen keyboard with iPhone. Guess who is winner. Same goes for internet browsing. You can't tell something is "good" or "bad" until you have something to compare with. Then you can rank things like "worse than" and "better than". But you need at least 2 things to compare, not just tell us "iPhone rulz" :P.
>Cool, you go with unusable and slow Nokia
>phones, I'll stay with iPhone.
And enjoy by lock-ins, artificial limits worth of an MS-DOS ages, etc? Thanks, but no. iPhone is a stylish ... but it's still a toy with all these restrictions and limits. It can't qualify as an computer. I can't say, download torrent. And I see nothing wrong downloading Creative Commons licensed movie or Linux iso. If Apple thinks otherwise, they have to STFU. It is I am who pays my moneys for device and data plan, etc. So, the customer is always right.
> It's your money, anyway.
Yes. And I will pay them for "allowed", "you can", "access granted", "cool feature".
I will not pay my moneys for "denied", "restricted", "you can't", "locked-in", "artificial restrictions", etc. I should be a real owner of my device if I paying $500. And in case of Apple it's apple who pwns me and device, actually. That's unacceptable.
>And I personally compared Maemo on-screen keyboard with iPhone
ReplyDeleteHave you tried N97 ? A phone that you can actually buy (don't know what you compared iPhone with, since Maemo phones are not on the market). Let me tell you that N97 is slooow and practically unusable due to cumbersome UI and frequent freezes.
Whatever's on the market from Nokia, iPhone wins hands down. So does Htc Hero, to be honest.
I have tested mentioned phones and let me tell you: I won't hold my breath for N900. Nokia is a big disappointment in the last few years and it wasn't stellar before that, because in my opinion WM phones were better at the time.
Of course, cheap phones for masses are a different story.
You don't seem to know much about Android platform, so maybe make bit more research before posting any more biased articles like this one. You are not doing any good marketing for N900 this way. I agree with the result, Maemo is more free than Android. But can you trust applications you install to your phone having all this freedom?
ReplyDeleteIn addition to Java, Android can be programmed with other languages, like Scala and Clojure. CyanogenMod was about breaking Google's license, freedom doesn't mean you can steal. The case is now settled.
This blog is just a big troll against the Android platform, use very non accurate arguments and is basically pure zealotery.
ReplyDeleteI personally own a n770 and a n800.
May I remind that the Maemo team have broken several time the ABI preventing n770 applications to run on the n800 and thus losing a lot of apps and developers disgusted by this foolish approach and sometimes having no time nor willingness to update their code and supporting two different binaries ? Ohhh by the way this has happened also between n800 and n900.
So please give us a break about interoperability and clean your crap in from of your door please.
May I remind also the Meamo team about the total mess of their own freaking closed source software that prevented the n770 and the n8XX to be fully rebuilt and supported by the OpenSource community (Bluetooth and Wifi drivers for example)?
I am pretty sure that *again* with the n900 and Maemo 5 it is impossible to rebuilt completely the firmware because of some *again* proprietary binaries. Thank you Nokia.
Give us also a break on Java for Android compared to J2SE. Apart from Swing specifics and thru Android UI specifics it is Java 5. No more no less.
Developing for Android is way easier than for Maemo. Let's see:
- for Android: get and install the SDK (Linux, Windows, Mac) and get Eclipse. Install the SDK into Eclipse and start coding. Time spent: about 5 to 10 minutes.
- for Maemo 5: get and install the SDK (sorry Linux only, no real integrated IDE) then configure the SDK and start coding with vi. Time spent: hours to days (depending on you ISP connection to get the SDK binaries….) and no IDE support.
BTW, I can remote debug and profile my application easily on my Android device. Guess what, I just use my USB cable.
For Maemo, you need this (http://maemo-sdk.garage.maemo.org/sdk-plus-debugging-guide.html) and sometimes a special hardware not available except to Nokia when you want fine grain profiling. Nice, thank you Nokia...
Can we also count the number of consumer apps on the Android and Maemo platform ? Sorry, this is 10,000 versus a couple of hundred max. I am not even talking about the iPhone….
As a sum up I would say that the Maemo platform is just dead and not attractive for consumers nor developers in its form since the n770.
Nokia has made some interesting choice with Debian but also some critical erroneous choices and still does not understand how to deal with creating its next generation phone platform (S60 is dead and releasing phone with it today is just a bad joke) and more important Nokia does not learn of his past mistakes.
Some extremely strong competitors have emerged in the past 2 years and the game is over. Maemo 5 will just be another consumer / developer failure. Just face it. We will talk about it in one year from now.
One more thing, Android is a platform embraced already by many manufacturers, Maemo is just …. Nokia and who else… nobody else.
This will tell you more about the closed and open apps in Maemo: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Architecture/Top_Level_Architecture
ReplyDeleteThe biggest thing for me is how much of the code is GPL and in that regard Maemo wins over Android. Sadly, not all of the software is GPL. But on the other hand, it is a working phone / computer, as opposed to OpenMoko which does not yet work enough to use.
Also I have forgotten this nice one. Nokia is trying to sue Apple for patents infringements on the iPhone: http://www.nokia.com/press/press-releases/showpressrelease?newsid=1349562
ReplyDeleteJust look at some very good parts:
"Nokia has already successfully entered into license agreements including these patents with approximately 40 companies, including virtually all the leading mobile device vendors, allowing the industry to benefit from Nokia's innovation."
and "During the last two decades, Nokia has invested approximately EUR 40 billion in research and development and built one of the wireless industry's strongest and broadest IPR portfolios, with over 10,000 patent families."
That's so lame and demonstrate a very pathological behavior when you cannot beat your competitors.
A very non OpenSource way of thinking...
I am just hoping Apple will kick their ass big time.
Unfortunately, this is the problem with the patent system, especially with regard to software (which is already copyrighted so it doesn't need patent protection.)
ReplyDeleteThis is the reality of the business world today and Apple is be no means assured a victory in court. I doubt this wlll even make it that far though - perhaps there is something in Apple's portfolio that Nokia might be able to license?
> Have you tried N97 ? A phone that you can actually buy
ReplyDeleteNope. Why I have to try outdated and outperformed Symbian? Nokia is going to replace Symbian on top-grade devices. I compared with N810, which runs (older) Maemo 4. And Maemo 5 definitely kicks the ass.
> Nokia is a big disappointment in the last few years
ReplyDeleteThat's eaxctly reason to replace Symbian with something more competetive. And Maemo 5 + OMAP3-based hardware seems to be good in this role :-). Android not seems to be a real competitor to iPhone. Nokia can "fix" this soon with their new Maemo-based devices.
> to run on the n800 and thus losing a lot of apps and developers disgusted
ReplyDelete> by this foolish approach
1) 770 has been a first try. It has been a "testbed" for technology. Mostly for OS dev's and those brave enthusiasts who want to preview what would happen years ahead. It was some technology preview and a trials-and-errors (and early Symbian phones were even worse). Errors were learned, trials somewhat succeeded. But device had nasty hardware and software design limits, and keeping compatibility with old and limited 770 would not allow platform to evolve. If Android would take this approach, they have to implement J2ME and nothing except it.
If someone failed to understand these simple ideas, that's their own fault. World is changing and more and more people are not just "consumers" but are about to take part in developing the things. Nokia 770 has been a first try which has mostly proven this strategy actually going to work and Linux can become a decent platform. Nothing more, nothing less.
As for abandonware, it's simlpe to recompile program. If dev's not bothered self with such simple task, their project is probably dead anyway. I see no clue to support abandonware indefinitely.
> Ohhh by the way this has happened also
> between n800 and n900.
Yes, but I can have a third-party mplayer on BOTH. Officially. And it should not be hard to re-compile apps. On Android I have to suck without alternate native apps at all (at least officially and in easy ways). And it's not possible to write player with it's own codecs on Java due to JVM speed. So if platform does not supports file format X with codec Y on nXX0 you can install Mplayer ,etc and play it. On Android you're in stuck. So, you have a j2me-phone-like features, not a computer-like. Why should I need java toy if I can have a real computer in my pocket?
> (Bluetooth and Wifi drivers for example)?
As for wi-fi drivers, Kalle Valo tries to create open source driver. Everyone welcome to contribute! And Mer about to creating completely open system. While nokia shares a bunch of problems, I like their overall motion vector and community treatment much more than Google's approach.
> with the n900 and Maemo 5 it is impossible
ReplyDelete> to rebuilt completely the firmware
But wait, there is Mer who are about to do this? And is Android anyhow better in this regard? I heard Google even sued firmware modders for distributing their proprietary apps! And without these apps Android is quite useless piece of crap, actually. Not to mention that you have to resort to dirty hacks if you would ever want to upload firmware to your phone (and these are about to be fixed as "security problem"). But in Nokia ... I can rebuild, say, kernel and re-flash modded firmware. Legally. Without resorting to dirty hacking! And noone is going to fix this "security problem". Nokia's approach more clear and fair.
> Install the SDK into Eclipse and start
> coding. Time spent: about 5 to 10 minutes.
You forgot one thing: I have to learn Java, and it's quite uncommon Java flavor, actually. This would not finish in 5 minutes.
Furthermore, I already know a load of languages and I do not want to learn esoteric Java flavor just because Google thinks they know better what would be better for me to use. I prefer to have a freedom of choice. So, Google sucks. If you like Java, fine. But why anyone have to be FORCED to love it? That's where border between java toys and a real computers located, sir.
> and start coding with vi.
You talking like a slave who has been unexpectedly granted freedom and does not knows how to use it :-).Actually, to write C and C++ code, shell scripts, python code, whatever... you can use a ton of editors and IDEs you like. And it's possible to test and debug program on desktop and then just re-compile it.
Wtf I should only have option to use ONE tool and one language chosen by someone else? That's dictatorship. Can you imagine same idiocy on your computer? Limits are for toys.
> Sorry, this is 10,000 versus a couple of hundred max.
And there is even more J2ME apps. The only problem is that all they're mostly useless toys. So there is no alternate browser with own engine. Or alternate player with own codecs. Just 'coz these things are sucking when written on Java due to speed and memory use. So you can use 10 000 java-based pacman-like games and notepad-like apps. The only problem is that one app like a decent browser or IM client or player beats them all, when you're about to stop playing with crap and do something really useful. And can you show me something for Android beating Pidgin? Xchat? Psi? Or maybe you can port OpenTTD at least? Primitive java games are boring and slow. And Google just figured out this and tries to improve, allowing to run native code (ciao, portability! :D) and implementing OpenGL (but no, you can't just take Linux OpenGL game and just rebuild it... what an idiocy).
As for profiling, same algo written on C or C++ would run many times faster - due to lack of JVM overhead. So, you definitely have to do a lot of profiling on Adnroid :-D. Lol!
> Nokia does not learn of his past mistakes.
It learns, not perfectly, but they do. As for Android: WHERE THE SALES? There is buzz, but no sales. Because Android lacks good advantages. On iPhone you can say, play NFS. And it's possible to create something like this for Maemo. But not an option for Android at all (and when google would support OpenGL, that would be still a complete a headache due to moron platform design).
As for maemo 5 - it would be not a "failure", it would be a first serious try of OpenSource on general market. And yes, it may have some quirks. But Android is one big quirk from it's start. Google learns too. And made even more mistakes. So, actually, iPhone rocks the world and no, java s**t from Google is not a competitor, actually. It does not brings visible advantages to consumers and completely sucks for geeks. And who is target audience, then? Maybe that's what explains bad sales of Android devices?
To the Anonymous that is not even giving his name and hide (maybe beacuse he is ashamed...)
ReplyDeleteYour comments and responses shows obviously that you are not knowing Java at all and a bit narrow minded.
Let's rectify.
1) "But device had nasty hardware and software design limits, and keeping compatibility with old and limited 770 would not allow platform to evolve. If Android would take this approach, they have to implement J2ME and nothing except it."
Please dont try to speak for Android nor Java as you are definitively not very proficient on them.
Android platform has proven in only 1 year to be more flexible into its upgrades compared to Maemo and by using the Dalvik JVM Android has just and very wisely virtualized the handest hardware like it has been done years ago for J2SE and J2ME. It has also keep the Java Language Specification from Java 5. This is a prefect example of Write Once Read Anywhere approach.
By doing so, all of the current devices are able to run code of Android 1.0 and 1.1, 1.5, 1.6 and the coming 2.0.
I really dont see this flexibble approach on Maemo that prefered to break compatibility several time in the past, today with n900 and will again do it in the future with new devices and/or new Maemo version.
Yes the pure C/C++ binaries approach forces you to do so for improving the platform and it is well know to be plain bad.
2) "If someone failed to understand these simple ideas, that's their own fault. World is changing and more and more people are not just "consumers" but are about to take part in developing the things."
That's so lame to consider your consumer as just "lab rats" or "throw away tests" and not supporting the previous devices and your previous customers/developers is just like nullifying all the people that thave invested money and time in the platform. If Maemo 5 exists it is because there has been some customers to buy the n770 and n800 and those persons have the right to be upset.
Growing a plafform cannot be done by leaving some people on the side of the road. If it is done, it just means that the platform has failed and screwed up from the beginning by very poor choices.
3) "I see no clue to support abandonware indefinitely."
Sorry, again you dont understand the problem and try to justify those crappy choices. Keeping apps running on the platform on a medium term is quite important to be able to have a nice and improving catalog (which Maemo does not have anymore … oh wait I would say didnt get at all even in the n770/n800 time).
Then forcing developers to buy new and expensive devices for "upgrading" their application (dont tell me here that the emulator is enough to do it…) has shown its limits and just make them leave the platform.
4) "Why should I need java toy if I can have a real computer in my pocket? "
First stop using alway the same "toy" term for Android. Thats starts to be annoying and Android is also a real "computer" in your pocket. If I would just count apps available on the platform I would say that the Maemo platform is just a failure and the Maemo devices just developer devices...
Concerning codes supports just look for your education at http://dl.google.com/io/2009/pres/Mastering_the_Android_Media_Framework.pdf to see what's already suppported in 1.5 and what will be.
5) "As for wi-fi drivers, Kalle Valo tries to create open source driver. Everyone welcome to contribute! And Mer about to creating completely open system. While nokia shares a bunch of problems, "
ReplyDeleteAh ah ah ah, you have been caugh the hands right in the bag….OpenSource you said ??
6) "But wait, there is Mer who are about to do this? And is Android anyhow better in this regard? "
Wowww, very nice response with a project (Mer) that is just at its infancy. YES Android is way better as you can easily rebuild the firmware for ALL supported devices (not only the latest as for Maemo 5) without also "dirty" hacking for developer devices and some "little" configuration for consumer devices.
And yes, by saying so you just admit that Meamo platform is just focused on developers before consumers.
We (me and other people here) have already also explained to you the facts about the Cyanogen steal of Google intellectual properties so stop trolling about that.
Concerning the "security issue" there was a bug that have been fixed. That's all. Like any other bugs found on Maemo….
7) "Furthermore, I already know a load of languages and I do not want to learn esoteric Java flavor just because Google thinks they know better what would be better for me to use. "
Yeah, you seem to know a lot in breadth but not really in depth (like all the wrong informations about Java on Android)…Again and last time I am saying it, Java on Android *is* standard Java 5. Using the Android UI framework is very similar to JFC/Swing and with a few specificities you just need to learn. Not a big deal for any serious developer.
Again Android is offering you to develop in Java and C and C++ not really forcing you.
BTW, if you were a very serious developer you could easily learn it in one hour …. but all your comments shows that you are not even of this kind of caliber and flexible mind.
8) "You talking like a slave who has been unexpectedly granted freedom and does not knows how to use it :-).Actually, to write C and C++ code, shell scripts, python code, whatever... you can use a ton of editors and IDEs you like. And it's possible to test and debug program on desktop and then just re-compile it
I am not a slave of anything, you are a "Maemo slave" in the contrary….working for Nokia interests only….
Gimme a break on IDE and tools also. I started using and bulding them before you were even born… I am speaking here of ease and speed of development, a point where Maemo is way behind any other platform like Android, the iPhone, Palm Pre and even the crappy Blackberry.
9) "And there is even more J2ME apps..."
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely not and that shows your wrong knowledge on the J2Me platform (and Java in general again). Your next comments also prove easily that you have never used seriously any Android device and used any app or played any game on it.
For OpenTTD, wowwwww such a lame and crappy game….. Who really care about porting it. Just look at the latest Android (and iPhone) games….
BTW, how many interesting and commercial quality games on Maemo: hmmm let me guess, yes, ….. none.
For IM client on Android there are many that support most or all the common IM protocols and who cares about this freaking buggy Pigin.
Last but not least Open GL is supported on Android but yes we dont care about the shitty games you are talking about.
10) "As for profiling, same algo written on C or C++ would run many times faster - due to lack of JVM overhead. So, you definitely have to do a lot of profiling on Adnroid :-D. Lol!"
Such lame comment again and wrong assertion about the JVM and virtual machines in general. You should definitively Google a bit about this subject and try to compare running bytecode and C/C++ binaries in real world situation. You are just like a developer that used or tried Java 1.0 and has never updated his knowledge and experience about it. Very sorry for you and symptomatic of being very narrow minded.
Last but not least, profiling with Valgrind is not quite easy and is definitivetly less easy than profiling on Android.
11) "Maybe that's what explains bad sales of Android devices?"
Ahaha, again wrong. Sales of Android are ramping up big time and a few milions devices compared to the microscopic sales of Maemo since the beginning is a plain victory and a big sanction to the non consumer and not really developer friendliness of Maemo.
If Maemo was so attractive why is there no interesting applications and games from big publishers? I will tell you: because nobody cares about this freaking Nokia only platform (which have also probably expensive licensing rights).
12) "It does not brings visible advantages to consumers and completely sucks for geeks"
You are qualifying you as a "geek" because you use a Maemo device ? Ahahaahaa, that's funny and so childish but in perfect line with your zealotery, arrogance and closeness of mind.
You are saying also that Maemo is willing to be an iPhone competitor. I cannot stop laughting now….
Let's stop this talk and restart it in one or two years when you will have the real world demonstration of the failure....
Android will probably gain popularity, thanks to Google faster than Maemo and that is a shame. Especially since Maemo has been around since 2006, obviously marketing was lacking as too many people believe Maemo suddenly became available this year. Nope, wrong, its been up and running for over 3 years now, that is why there are over 400 apps listed on the Maemo website today. Add in all the possible applications that can be installed via apt-get and the debian repositories and yum via the Redhat/CentOS repositories and you have a HUGE advantage over EVERY OTHER platform including Android.
ReplyDeleteThe biggest and most needed feature is freedom. Freedom demands the ability to get access to root if you need to. Period, end of discussion.
Being able to get to root, does NOT make a device less secure. Any device is insecure if you do not use a decent secure password. So that is just FUD.
Since I can develop on Linux and port to EVERY OTHER PLATFORM, including Windows, MacIntosh, even Android...though I am not sure about the iPhone itself, but my guess is that it would take C language code, you would just use a different compiler.
Right now Android and Google are catering to the cellular (wireless) carriers; and anyone with half a brain and a clue KNOWS without doubt that the cellular carriers do NOT want you to be able to jail break or get away from their proprietary platform, no matter what. They too will be forced to move away from their slowly failing model, just do not expect it to happen any time soon. Telcos are notorious for milking equipment for every penny unless forced to change.
Best way to force the issue, refuse to purchase any device that will not let you have root access and install open source applications. Period. Right now that is only Nokia and Maemo. There are no other solutions. So even though they will sell millions, they will never get the business from those of us who are free and know better. Just is not going to happen.
For the shill that said you could not get access with the Nokia Nxxx series of phones, that is ONLY with CELLULAR.
Switch to VoIP, Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) with Skype is less than $100 per year. Install a DD-WRT enabled WiFi Router/ Firewall hardware device between your Cable/DSL modem and your network and you have phone (WiFi VoIP phone) at home. Get your Company to install a WiFi hotspot (DD-WRT enabled) at work and you now have phone (granted WiFi VoIP phone) access for where you are 80% of your time. You should not be talking on your phone in the car anyway.
I am very Much an free and open source software guy, and i Go with your sentiments. But If you so much care about free software get off blogspot.
ReplyDeletelamapper,
ReplyDeleteWhat kind of company do you work for that will just "install" a wifi hotspot at your demand? No company I've ever worked for would ever do that due to budget considerations (BS red tape, I know, but most of us don't have the options you're talking about)
I don't really care if Google is catering to the network providers. My Android phone runs just fine and oh for all of you whining and bitching about java/codecs...you can run native libs on Android. So shove the codec in a native lib and it'll run fast enough. Although why are you watching video on a 2.5" screen? No computer at home or something?
The Anonymous conversations are brilliant! LOL
ReplyDeleteAll the best.
Ann Nonymous ;-)
Hei wifi router cost 30$
ReplyDelete> (maybe beacuse he is ashamed...)
ReplyDeleteNo, just too lazy to register. And to be honest, word "Fabrice" does not tells me anyhow more than "Anonymous" does. So what's a difference?
>you are not knowing Java at all
Yes, I do not want to learn Java and especially esoteric flavour. Why I should be forced to learn it and love it?
> and a bit narrow minded.
Everyone who does not agrees Google and it's way are called "narrow minded"? Lol! Hitler told something similar, the only difference was that he was about "races", and we're about "languages". But idea is quite the same. He told there are superior race. You told there is superior language. Who should be ashamed of such behavior? Me? Are you sure? Nokia does not wants to force me to learn new language - they provide a choice and open possibilities instead. I like this more than Google's approach.
> as you are definitively not very proficient on them.
ReplyDeleteAttempt to shut up the opponent by claiming he is an idiot and you're smart without posting a valid proof and arguing tis is uhm, stupid and looks lame enough. While I'm not interested in Java I still have a good overall system engineering knowledge, so you would have some troubles proving that I'm stupid. You're free to try though.
1) As for "plain C/C++ binaries" - you can run JVM this way. What? Nobody really bothered self running slow resource hog JVMs when they can run native apps? Sorry then. It's a freedom of choice, Luke. Looks like people are only willing to use java apps when they're absolutely forced to do so... very interesing observation, he-he :). Let's say I preferred native apps on Symbian as well since they're faster and ate fewer RAM. So, good luck in ENFORCING others to use your programs by DENYING them all other choices. But that's what called fascism and that's what's going to FAIL.
> That's so lame to consider your consumer as
ReplyDelete> just "lab rats" or "throw away tests"
2) No, it's so lame to be a stupid consumer and expect everyone else to be same stupid and useless creature as well. Not everyone wants to be useless consumer with switched off brain. I'm for example happy to help Nokia to improve their devices. They need to produce something impressive. I want to buy something impressive. That's our shared goal, don't you think so? So we can work on it TOGETHER. Instead of fighting each other. And collaboration haves more potential than f...g up each other. I believe that's a way to go. I believe that's where our future. Humans should create and innovate, not just consume and degrade. Else they're not anyhow better than other animals. Don't you think so? Even animal can consume. Humans can also create, invent, improve, innovate. That's what makes us different from other animals and grants us all our power. Just consume? Am I silly cow? Or a human, after all?! Answer self on this question and you would get some idea why it's so evil to cripple consumer's rights.
As far as Android being easier to program for., that may be why most of those 10,000 apps all seem the same. A bunch of lego apps and no space for people to consistently by apps.
ReplyDeleteAndroid is great for multi-device compatibility, but the price is there is not really much meat to the apps. They are as shallow as Paris Hilton's view on world macro economics.
3)
ReplyDelete> (dont tell me here that the emulator is enough to do it…)
But it is. And 770 had a hardware design flaws which would cause most of devices to die sooner or later with white screen of death. Not to mention too small RAM, etc. So it has been killed as platform and that was for good. As for price, I can afford $500 device once per 2 years or so. It's worth of it anyway as new hardware generation which niticeaby boosts speed and system resources, etc while remaining in same size and weight or even improving them and adding neat features (yes, more powerful CPU, twice of RAM, GPS, etc are making device worth of purchase and do provide more headroom for devs, etc). There is quite few apps because ... because tablets are not a phones so they're quite specific market. Nokia has been successful on this market, actually. Look, Intel has miserably failed 3 times trying to just enter this market :). Others did not run too well too. And Nokia 810 has been in top of Amazon sales. Just for comparison, he-he. I can guess platform would get a huge boost once it also haves GSM/3G functionality. This would make it far more popular since it would be able to enter both (small and strange) "PDA" market (where n8x0 were actually a leaders in these years!) AND "smart phones" and "communicators" markets (which are far larger these days).
4)
ReplyDelete> First stop using alway the same "toy" term for Android.
Nope, I would call things as I see them. If it looks like a dog, I would call it a dog. If it looks like a toy, I would call it a toy. That's not going to change, even if zillion of Google fanboys would come and eat me alive.
> Thats starts to be annoying and Android is
> also a real "computer" in your pocket.
No. Computers are powerful and devices which grant you freedom, not deny it. They're not bound to one vendor, one OS, one programming language, one data plan, one cell operator or ISP. And they're about to help to solve your tasks. Android not looks like this at all. Look, on n8x0 you can actually boot several various Linux distros, if you really want to. Not anyone needs this. But there is still an option. And basically nothing forbids to run any other OS as long as one wants port it and run it and able to do it. You do not need it? Maybe. But you also do not need right to defend yourself each and every day since nobody trying to kill you daily. Should you be denied right to defend yourself and your property then? You almost never using this right anyway! :D
>Ah ah ah ah, you have been caugh the hands right in the bag….
ReplyDelete>OpenSource you said ??
Yes, and here we can see who does values opensource ans thinks it's way to go. And we can see who just (ab)uses OpenSource as buzzword. While Nokia shares a load of problems, they seems to get it right and not just using open source but also doing something in exchange as well. If you're too narrow-minded to understand this and value this, that's not my fault. But if you share such views you're surely not an free software people, since you do not seems to care about actual freedoms much. If so, please stop fooling us about "freedoms" of Android. Because in real world you're can basically buy some locked sh*t brick with Android and only use it via JVM. Being totally locked out of your device's operating system and denied right to use another, less crippled firmware. Surely you can hack things but hacking own expensive device actually sucks and vendor and/or Google would "fix" this as "vulnerability". Excuse me, sir, but my rights to got root is not a "vulnerability". It's like saying that "freedom is a security threat, so let's jail everyone to stop all the crime!". Google's approach, actually - put you to "safe" JVM so your freedom is "properly restricted" in vendor-enforced manner. That's simply sucks, regardless of fanboy's words.
> Wowww, very nice response with a project (Mer)
ReplyDelete> that is just at its infancy.
So what? Nobody told that perfect freedom is easy. It isn't easy with Android as well. So, freedom comes with it's price. Not anyone can pay this price, BUT there should be an option to do so. It looks like Nokia is going to grant us such option and leave choice up to customers. That's great approach, actually. At least one vendor who treats customers in clear and fair way. Without lies and attempts to fool you.
>YES Android is way better as you can easily
>rebuild the firmware for ALL supported devices
But then on most of them you would face a "secure bootloader" (which secures device from your firmware) and "locks" (which do not allow you to change operator, even if you would like to, leaving you as a slave minion of your operator, actually). So you can "enjoy" when your device refuses to accept your changed firmware (and if it does not, that's going to be fixed soon as "security vulnerability"). So, while others are "fixing" "issue" than you can get root, Nokia officially allows you to get root. And provides non-crippled system, etc. And stop telling me that mobile device needs more security than my PC. If security is interfering with my tasks and renders device useless, it have to be re-thought and re-adjusted. So security paranoids with JVMs are sucking. Let's them use their desktop as non-administrative user through JVM only if they think it's so cool :). As for me I have no idea why I should be more restricted on communicator device than on laptop. I can always attach laptop to communicator degrading it to a "modem" role. Then I have unrestricted root access, etc. The only difference is that I have to carry laptop, which is inconvenient but possible. With Nokia I would be able to leave laptop at home in half of scenarios, allowing communicator device to do a half or laptop's tasks. Android can't achieve this with it's java-based craplets. They would rather degrade notebook's features to a java cell phone's level than uplift phone's features to notebook's level. I do not need overgrown cell phone made of notebook in my bag, and I want my "phone" to be a powerful device which can replace laptop in half of cases.
> Yeah, you seem to know a lot in breadth but
ReplyDelete> not really in depth
Actually, I do not care much what java script kiddies are thinking about my skills.
> Java on Android *is* standard Java 5.
Standard? Are you kidding? These morons even changed the bytecode for some reason. So you can't easily run other java apps on android and vice versa. So, Android is so standard that it's compatible to ... Android ONLY. Just as Windows compatible with windows only, etc.
>Using the Android UI framework is very similar
"Very similar to" does not means "compatible with". So, nobody else benefits from existence of Android. And it can't benefit from existing programs.
>serious developer.
If you want to count as a "serious developer", you have to understand one thing: dependence on single platform and single vendor sucks. Just as it's completely sucks if your program can be started on ONE platform only. That's worse than Windows, actually. You can run Windows program on your Linux desktop if you really need to. But with Android, you would fail to do so, generally. So, only Android benefits from programs which are not compatible with anything else. On other hand, Maemo is almost standard GTK and Qt environment, there are no major problems to port existing programs to/from GTK and Qt on Windows, Linux (or whatever else) desktops, laptops, etc. And if some program created for maemo it can be compiled for desktops as well without major problems most of times. So, other platforms could benefit as well.
> Again Android is offering you to develop in Java
Thank you very much but I do not want to use Java. I'm fine without it and I'm not a personal Google's slave to be forced to learn it.
> and C and C++ not really forcing you.
Wow, yes, I seen. You can call native code from Java, so you have to know something about this crap anyway and you have to learn to program in awfully non-standard environment. Thanks, go learn this crap yourself if you want to.
> BTW, if you were a very serious developer you
> could easily learn it in one hour ….
And again, I'm not a google's personal slave to get forced to learn their crappy and twisted "cool inventions". Maybe that's hard to understand for script kiddies? I have to admit that if I would have an extra time, I would rather learn Qt better. Why? Because once written, you can run program on Windows, Linux, Mac, some Nokia devices and whatever else running Qt. That's makes some difference actually. So I do not have to depend on "Google", "Microsoft", "Linux Torvalds" or whoever else and can run in multiple systems with one code. Not something that Android could easily offer... and you even don't have to be bound to C++ since there are bindings for other languages as well.
> even of this kind of caliber and flexible mind.
Flexible mind? Does this means I should be screwed up by Google and then just shut up and learn all crap they're going to enforce? Nope, thanks, I'm not a Google's personal slave, so I do not need to be "flexible" fortunately.
8)
ReplyDelete> I am not a slave of anything, you are a "Maemo slave"
> in the contrary….working for Nokia interests only….
Nope, when Nokia develops something, it's also useful for those who does not using anything from Nokia. Should I admit their wonderful SIP library which is used by many programs? Their empathy is being used as part of Gnome these days. They did submitted patches to Linux kernel. They're going to create a oFono, which would be a standard connections management framework for mobile devices. Actually, Nokia has turned to proper member of opensource community, which not just develops for itself but also being somehow useful for others as well. Unlike Google's platform which is useful for itself only and no other platform benefits from Android's existence. So, "more closed" Maemo and Nokia actually using opensource collaborative spirit and nature much more than Google does. Strange. But true. I never thought Nokia would go this way. And being an large and proprietary corporation in it's past they're doomed to have some quirks at start. That's completely OK if you would consider size of this company and hence some managers inertia, etc. And still they somehow managed to do it. Amazing. Ironically I like their way more than Google, while Google has always been opensource-friendly. That's weird, but it's up to Google.
> Gimme a break on IDE and tools also. I started
ReplyDelete> using and bulding them before you were even born…
Wow, then you're have to be least some 50 years old? I'm sorry but your excessive speech about "serious developers" and "flexible minds" does not qualifies for this age. So I'm afraid you're just a liar, sir. Which also haves certain troubles with self-identification so should repeat something like "serious developers" to try to make others thinking he is a "serious developer". We called such a "serious" dev's as a "script kiddies" many years ago, actually :-). Coz usually these "serious java dev's" can't even code stupid B-tree algo or even base64 encoder on their own if there is no such class already available, etc. What they can is to produce a glue code between classes. Surely you're so serious with your java toys, sir.
Just hope that somebody will be able to patch the N900 wifi driver so that aircrack-ng monitor mode works on it.... having a portable aircrack in your pocket would really make lotsa people more than happy :))))
ReplyDelete9)
ReplyDelete> OpenTTD, wowwwww such a lame and crappy game…..
Surely, pacman and tetris-like crap for Android is much better :D.
> Who really care about porting it.
At least I am. I like to play it. Years passed, but still nobody managed to create anything better. Others had a better graphic but either sucking gameplay or a horrible usability. So, I can even excuse somewhat outdated graphic for impressive gameplay. And you can play a complex strategy game on a pocket device. I can also admit say, Battle for Wesnoth. It's nice strategy as well and can be played on n8x0 as well. Can you show me anyhow comparable strategy games for Android, then? I can also play doom and quake. A bit slow without 3D accelerator on n8x0 but playable. It woulf be fun to see how it performs on n900. Something like this on current Google's devices? :D
>Just look at the latest Android (and iPhone) games….
For iPhone there is NFS, this makes sense, yes. Granted a native code execution abilities, quite fast CPU and 3D accelerator - it's possible (and n900 is quite same in this regard, unlike Android). Android can't do something like this at all right now. Not to mention that coding such thing for android is a true nightmare for any gamedevs.
> quality games on Maemo: hmmm let me guess,
> yes, ….. none.
Hmm... Quake has become freeware and crappy at some point? Am I missed something? It's open source but still not a freeware and surely commercial quality. And if you going to compare q2 on n8x0 and q4 on desktop, I hope you're going to compare NFS on desktop and iphone as well, then and get some ideas as well, right?
>For IM client on Android there are many that
> support most or all the common IM protocols
Yet they're either half-working or just suck even compared to "freaking buggy Pigin" which is quite usable on n8x0 and even convenient and featured enough. You can also try to outrun Psi if you would like to, but Java crap implementing same features risking to run out of memory on small device :D
>Last but not least Open GL is supported on Android
So I can buy device and say, play Quake? Where I can see Quake running on Android, then? I can see it on n8x0 in my pocket though.
> but yes we dont care about the shitty games
>you are talking about.
Then which games you're referring to? Is Quake "shitty" game as well? And after all you're going not just limit me to certain language telling other languages are "shitty" but also restrict me in which games I should play too? Am I your mindslave? No? Then go to hell. Pretty please :). I would decide myself which languages to use and which games to play. Without a bunch of script kiddies who can't code anything like Quake anyway. 'Coz Karmak is an old-school guru of 3D, unlike java script kiddies with their shitty games are.
About profiling: look quicklz.org - not so bad coded lib designed for speed, launched on decent implementation of Java from Sun (which actually far better than Google's AFAIK) still loses 3 times in java version to C version. I'm thinking that things would be even worse on Google's engine. Same would go for encryption, audio/video codecs, heavy computations, complex scene or UI renderings computed on main CPU, fast lookups, etc - everything that requires fast memory access or raw CPU computing power sucks on Java. In fact you can only create static UI or simplistic ZX-like games, then you can ignore loss of speed by several times. Anywhere else it going to suck. And phone's CPU already so sucking so reducing it's horsepower further is horrible idea. And yes, you're free to code NFS in java. Or you can try to outrun C version of quicklz in java. If you would manage to, I would agree I'm lame, etc. Yet granted a fair benchmark Java loses on same algo several times so you HAVE to do much more profiling for sure - because most of CPU horsepower wasted on JVM itself :P. And generally java is also a memory hog. If you want to tell all this not true, then please explain why Google finally implemented option to run native code "for performance critical applications"? Either Google does completely stupid and pointless actions or you're liar one more time, sir? Can you please clarify on this?
ReplyDelete11)
ReplyDelete> Sales of Android are ramping up big time
Blah-blah-blah. Still no competition to iPhone.
> and a few milions devices compared to the
> microscopic sales of Maemo
Granted lack of GSM modem, n810 actually had a quite good sales. Try to sell at least something with Android which is not a cell phone and we'll see which sales would be worse.
12)
> You are qualifying you as a "geek" because
> you use a Maemo device ? Ahahaahaa, that's funny
You probably failed to understand something, sir? I do not qualify myself anywhere. I'm just doing some markets analysis. What an epic fail of your mindflow and proof of your arrogance. I'm never self-judging or talking I'm good or guru. That's up to others to decide coz self-judging can't be neutral. You failing to understand this so far. This looks silly and funny, sorry :-). And you saying word "child" and referring to age so much. Looks like you have some troubles with your age? And always thinking I'm going to prove I'm cool and worthy while I never tried to do so. Do you have troubles with self-evaluation? Nobody takes you seriously? Whoa, that's your fault - not mine!
> and so childish but in perfect line with your
> zealotery, arrogance and closeness of mind.
Thanks for one extra proof you having some troubles with age and self-judgment, etc. No further proof needed, you told enough, my psycho-analytic abilities allow to understand who're you already, thanks.
>You are saying also that Maemo is willing to
>be an iPhone competitor.
At least it haves a good potential and it's far better than Symbian haves to offer. And the best open platform I can see around.
> I cannot stop laughting now….
Laugh is good, you provided me with some pleasure as well. So, come back in 5 years and we will talk about failures once more :). Sorry, 2 years not enough to see long-term strategy failures, etc and neither Nokia nor Google would not became bankrupts in 2 years. So, 5 years would be better to see where to platforms would go. Yet I can pre-sense Google would have a major troubles with their platform design, at some point they will understand this design limits their abilities too much and competitors are kicking their asses, but they would need to keep compatibility with this shit and if they're not they would get a very bad reputation. That's going to be a poor choice for Google, IMHO.
I think one point many people miss is that there are more and more developers who simple find it easier to develop using Java as a programming language (even if the bytecode is non-standard). I worked for years with C myself and know other C developers like me, who all prefer Java now if possible, for all the well known reasons (yeah, we're pussies, I admit it).
ReplyDeleteSo, even though I find Maemo more appealing in terms of freedom and openness, the greatly designed and integrated Java APIs of Android have a HUGE appeal to me as a developer. Access to the address book, to location-based services, to SMS / MMS / language phone functions, to the camera etc. etc.
And for those who forgot, a Java VM indeed is a much more secure execution environment that natively run code, especially if it's not your own code.
You forgot two critical points :
ReplyDeleteAndroid will be sold by numerous manufacturers, complicating developer's lives, but granting users numerous fashion choices, which ordinary people do perceive as freedom.
Android's Java runtime is currently being ported to run under Maemo, meaning all Android apps will also run on Nokia's N900.
So ultimately N900 buyers will gain computing freedom while sacrifice nothing software wise, but ordinary consumers will usually choose the cute shaped pink Android based phone.
Подібно тому, як платформа Maemo обмежена підтримуються Nokia, Те ж саме з розвитком.
ReplyDeleteOk first I want to say that Pidgin is NOT BUGGY - Just for saying that is shows your an idiot who has never used a Linux PC - Pidgin is super fast and runs on Desktop Linux and Windows 7 PCs SUPER FAST and wow it runs on Maemo too!! Thats another reason I want a N900!!!! Another reason is Mobile Firefox aka Fennec - It's has the best UI of any mobile browser in my option, supports add-ons and syncs bookmarks/awesome-bar history with Firefox on your HOME PC!!!
ReplyDeleteI have owned a G1 for over a year and I must say that I am very happy with it. It does everything a PHONE should do. They UI is nice has a decent selection of apps and although it is a little buggy and freezes up sometimes I have really enjoyed using it.
I saw the N900 and was blown away - I remember a quote that is perfect for describing it I think
"The N900 is for someone that wants a little bit of phone with their computer . . ."
...while the G1 or the iphone is for people who want a little bit of computer with their smartphone and I think this is the perfect description.
ReplyDeletePersonally I want a REALLY computer in my pocket with FIREFOX and ADD-ON's and MULTITASKING and a LINUX TERMINAL and the N900 is the only phone of the market to offer this. I must admit the Android community is growing so quickly that I am scared to purchase this EXPENSIVE DEVICE and feel out in the cold when cool android features come out and I can not take advantage of them...one of those features is the speech to search feature that I have NOW in my G1 - I can not tell you how convent it is to do a Google Search while I am coming out of the subway. I can simple >SAY< "Movie theaters in times square " and BOOM I have the number to my nearest theater. The N900 with all its computing power can not do that. I saw I video on youtube of the Nexus One using the Google Translator APP to translate a conversation between two people in real time from English to Chinese! All with speech! The English person asked a question and the phone translated it and read his question in Chinese so the other person could understand it and answer back. I know Maemo doesn't have this feature... I have heard that Ovi maps sucks big time. . . .I am so used to Google Maps I would feel lost with out it....So in the end it is the Google Services ... I think .... That make it hard for other Mobile OS Platforms to compete.... Android is a Toy when it come to being an OS but its a Google Toy .... I would not want to run my primary computer or even a laptop on Android or even that SUPER TOY OF AN OS GOOGLE "CHROME OS"?!?!?!(big disappointment by the way) but when it comes to being a Mobile Device Android does have a very big advantage ... more apps and the notorious Google Services Integrated for FREE!!! its hard not to love it....however if I could run Android apps on a N900 (which I think is totally do-able) than Nokia might get their $600 dollars for me after all!
Anonymous G1 guy again - Cyanogen Mod did not STEAL anything you fkcing idiots . . . What he was doing not only helped first generation G1 users like be back when Android OS was 100x times slower and buggier than it is now but it is NOT ILLEGAL to install the Google Apps that came with your GOOGLE PHONE....The hypothetically illegal think would be to use his version of the OS with a non Google Phone which is absolutely retarded as well because the ROM's are built with the drivers for that specific phone and would not work on any other device?!?!?!
ReplyDeleteSending cease and desist letters to developers who work on and contribute to your source code for FREE and DO NOT MAKE ANY MONEY FROM DOING SO is not open source it is corporate bullshit. Cyanogen Mod was (and still is) a great asset to the android community - Cyanogen should hook up with some Maemo people and port over the Java Frame work from Android over to Maemo so the N900 can support Android Apps - Then we will see who is talking
I was sure to buy a X10 with the derivative UX of Android... Until yesterday. I knew of Maemo but had fallen in the misconception that Android also was Linux. Now i know better.
ReplyDeleteI would like to choose my operatingsystem in the same way i do on my computer. To choose hardware first and OS after. Right now the UX or SE-X10 will have the best harware and are totaly beautiful, but is Android.. :(
Could i run Maemo native on SE-X10 it would have been a done deal. Apple will be dead in a couple of years (to controlling) and Android is basicly java sh-t.
I want a phone that are as easy as linux, free and basicly a computer. I will get that with Maemo. I could also run my own OS (Ubuntu) of choise on my phone if i liked to.
I have a really hard time to choose. I stand between a hardware and a operating system choise. The price tag is equal. What should i chose?
So as long as you don't break the boot-loader/flasher (which may be protected and hard to access) you can do what you want with it.
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ReplyDeleteWith Nokia n900 you can use aircrack-ng..
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ReplyDeleteOk first I want to say that Pidgin is NOT BUGGY - Just for saying that is shows your an idiot who has never used a Linux PC - Pidgin is super fast and runs on Desktop Linux and Windows 7 PCs SUPER FAST and wow it runs on Maemo too!! Thats another reason I want a N900!!!! Another reason is Mobile Firefox aka Fennec - It's has the best UI of any mobile browser in my option, supports add-ons and syncs bookmarks/awesome-bar history with Firefox on your HOME PC!.
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